Ep. 11: Exploring How to Tell the Story of Sustainability with Brandy Wilson and Mike Nemeth

Voiceover (00:06):

Resource Positive Agriculture describes what we all want, a food and farming system which makes full and responsible use of the natural world. In this podcast, I’ll explore how agriculture can be a force for good on everything from the environment to people and our society.

John Mesko (00:32):

This is John Mesko, and welcome to the Resource Positive Agriculture Podcast. I’m really excited today to have two of the PSA member organizations represented on the podcast. First is Mike Nemeth, who is the senior advisor for ag and environmental sustainability at Nutrien. Mike, thanks for being here.

Mike Nemeth (00:52):

Thanks, John. Great to be here.

John Mesko (00:54):

And Mike actually has been on another podcast, and so we’re going to talk a little bit about some of those same concepts today. But also, we have with us Brandy Wilson, who is the global sustainability director for the Simplot Company. Brandy, welcome, and thank you for being here.

Brandy Wilson (01:08):

Thank you, John. It’s great to be here with the two of you.

John Mesko (01:11):

It is a pleasure to have you both on the podcast. I really enjoy talking with people who bring new perspectives and new ideas to the organization, to myself, and it’s always encouraging and exciting to talk with people. And you guys are two of the brightest people in this whole conversation that I know, and so I’m looking forward to a fun conversation. But I want to kind of set it up by telling our listeners that one of the things that’s going on at PSA is that we are, as you know, evolving and expanding our discussion around sustainability. As the sustainability discussion evolves and expands, we are doing the same. And for the longest time, PSA has been really focused on collecting information from farmers, data, answers to questions about what they’re doing on their farm, and so forth.

(02:04):

And what you all have really helped me to see, and I think helped the organization to see, is that sustainability is that, but it’s also more than that, and that for farmers and the industry to tell an accurate and useful sustainability story for potatoes, we need to incorporate additional aspects to our sustainability program beyond just asking questions and getting answers and scoring them on a scale and getting them rated and answering this question that a lot of farmers want to know is, “Am I sustainable? Yes or no?” Check the box. You said I was. Okay, I’m moving on.

(02:44):

And as we’ve had many conversations prior to today’s podcast, sustainability is an ongoing, evolving conversation. So really, I wanted to kind of talk a little bit about that in a general sense. And Brandy, I’m going to start with you. When you think about sustainability from your role. You said global sustainability director, so of course, you’re involved in collecting data and reporting data to your stakeholders and so forth. But when we talk about what I’m going to say is maybe softer, softer metrics, things that aren’t tied to numbers necessarily, what kinds of things are you doing in your role to help demonstrate sustainability for your stakeholders?

Brandy Wilson (03:31):

Yeah, that’s a great question because everybody gets hung up on the metrics. Everybody gets obsessed with how are we doing. How are we doing compared to the previous year? But food is a very intimate experience. It’s one of the most intimate experiences that we have, and people have such an emotional connection to food. And so what really works when we’re talking about sustainability is how do we foster that emotional connection to people’s sustainability stories? So at the Simplot Company, of course, I work across fertilizer, beef, potatoes, all of these different areas. And ultimately, what people want to know is, is my food being produced in a healthy way by people who are being adequately compensated with good attention to animal welfare, environmental concerns, all of that? And so where I see some real opportunity across the board in sustainability is to engage in partnerships and projects that really allow those moments to shine, right?

(04:30):

And so if there’s opportunities for us to collaborate around biodiversity and pollinators or around water stewardship, so more than just looking at your irrigation equipment, but how are you really contributing to a watershed in a community? On the beef side of it, we talk a lot about grazing management plans and how we’re working with the community to make sure that those are adequate. Those are things that are tangible, relatable, things that people can understand in their communities. And so I think that represents a really wonderful, and so far, untapped area for PSA to look at, is how do we foster those partnerships and collaborations that really make a difference and communicate in a meaningful way to people about how their food is produced.

John Mesko (05:23):

I think that’s a great summary, and I love hearing some of those things. Mike, I’m going to. I have to admit, we’re recording this at Potato Expo, and you were in a session earlier, and I stole one of your taglines in a presentation. And you said something at our board meeting a few days ago that I found really, really compelling. You said –I’m going to paraphrase – but you said we should not be ashamed or hang our heads in production agriculture because we use water to produce food items. I really like that, and I think it’s a good reminder. Tell me a little bit more about where that comes from and what that means across the spectrum of your work at Nutrien.

Mike Nemeth (06:09):

Sure. Yeah. I mean, that comment kind of spurs from the… You’ll often hear agriculture uses 70% of the global freshwater supply, and that’s true. And that stat hasn’t really changed over the decades. When you look back at the literature, consistently, that 70% roughly, agriculture is a large withdrawal on the global freshwater supply, but we are producing food to feed people. And when you think back even two decades ago, when the population was around 5 billion, and now we’re over 8 billion, we’ve still maintained that 70%, but we’re feeding more people.

(06:51):

And so part of water stewardship and a large portion of what I do at Nutrien is understanding how we look at water in agriculture, not to try to vilify it and not to try to say, how do we not use it? Because we have to use it. It’s food production. You need nutrients and you need water. Those are the two greatest inputs in crop production. Doesn’t matter what you’re growing, that’s what plants need. And so to be able to do that from a stewardship lens, to say, how do we do this more effectively? How do we do it better? And how do we do it with that lens of doing it more sustainably, not just so that the environment benefits, but that growers benefit, so that communities benefit, and so that there’s a greater scale of economies, and doing what we do, but doing it from a social, environmental, and public good?

John Mesko (07:41):

I think that ties to a conversation, Brandy, that you and I had recently. I don’t remember really the context of it, but I remember talking about how the most successful people selling stuff on the internet are those who go into great detail about what it is they’re trying to sell. So, warts and all, right? So if you go on Craigslist and you look at somebody that’s got a car for sale, the ones who go into there’s a little scratch on the front bumper, and they have a picture of that, those people do really well, as opposed to the person who says, “It’s in great shape. Here’s the price.” The more information people have, the more confidence they have in what you’re saying and what you’re trying to sell.

Brandy Wilson (08:23):

And the more connection people feel to the product or to the service or whatever it is. So, it’s sort of like if you read a novel, right? So, there’s a lot of novels that are about boy meets girl, girl falls in love with boy, there’s some sort of problem, and then they get back together. And so, really, every romance novel could probably be done in about five or six pages, right? But how much fun would that be, and how much connection would you actually have with that book and that author? None. And so it’s really in providing these details and that kind of site-specific view of how this happens, how food is grown, and how it gets to the table that allows people to connect with what we’re doing in agriculture.

John Mesko (09:06):

And it acknowledges what we in agriculture know probably better than the average consumer that’s not closely connected with agriculture, that every farm, every field, every region, every country, every place we go on the planet, every crop is grown differently under different circumstances and different production practices and regimes and weather patterns. And this is something that is a good thing to remind people of.

Brandy Wilson (09:36):

Right. And that’s also something that people can relate to. I mean, how many people go on vacation in their hometown versus going to a different climate, right?

John Mesko (09:43):

Sure, sure. Good point.

Brandy Wilson (09:44):

So, people look for that novelty, and I think if we just embrace that novelty and talk about it, that can really help create opportunities for our growers and tell their story.

John Mesko (09:56):

So you all know, and people listening to this podcast understand that PSA collects information. We ask farmers questions. In a very, very general sense, we ask farmers questions. And we evaluate their answers to those questions, compare their answers to those questions with their regional peers, and we try to give them an idea of where they arrive on the curve. But there’s more to it than that, as we’ve been saying. And farmers already answer enough questions, they already answer enough surveys, and we’re probably not going to eliminate those questions. We’re going to continue to ask those questions, but there are other things we can do. And I know that Mike, you’ve been working with. Well, both of you have been working with a water project in Manitoba as a really good example of drawing connections between farmers and the project that’s going on there, as a way of demonstrating sustainability. So, I would like to review a little bit for our listeners what that project is and how it brings value to the supply chain and to farmers in particular.

Mike Nemeth (11:05):

Sure. So, the Manitoba Project, formerly called the Lake Winnipeg Basin Project, it’s a water stewardship project based in Manitoba, so in Western Canada. And really, it came about because water is a big issue in Manitoba, water quality. Lake Winnipeg is one of the largest lakes in North America, I think, in the world, freshwater lakes. And it has some problems with water quality around nutrient content, and part of that is obviously a non-point source. It drains a large portion of the Canadian prairies, which are heavily used for agriculture. And then there’s water supply, which is also a challenge around getting irrigation. And so there’s many challenges in that watershed.

(11:52):

So, there was an opportunity from interested companies, so it’s Simplot, Nutrien, BASF, and General Mills came together, saw an opportunity in a sourcing region for those companies and in a supply shed for those companies to be able to say, this area has unique challenges, as all areas do, but how do we come together and how can we look at a more formal internationally best-practiced type approach to water stewardship that looks at water stewardship on the farm through management practices to say, if we have changes in management practices, what are the outcomes in terms of water quantity and water quality? And can we understand that and maybe measure it or report on it at both the farm level and the watershed levels?

(12:40):

So that we know if we are doing water stewardship, just purely water stewardship practices, which also have other co-benefits, but if we’re doing those types of practices on the farm, what is the bigger value? What’s the bigger picture? And can we capture that? And can we do this in a way where we can actually take it and scale that same type of process in other watersheds that are agricultural sourcing areas or sales sheds? And what does that look like, and how can we do that? So, that was kind of the genesis for it and how it kind of began.

Brandy Wilson (13:14):

Yeah, and already, I mean, we’re partway through the project and we’ve been going through the Alliance for Water Stewardship process. And the first couple of steps of that process involves going out and interacting with the other stakeholders in the watershed and really understanding the context of the watershed for the farms that are involved. And that is something that you can’t just capture in a metric. That’s something that is really truly site-specific. So, what we’re doing is we’re just looking at this from a whole farm perspective and saying, all right, when you look at what the constraints are in the watershed and you look at what the opportunities are in the watershed, what actions can we take on farm and as a value chain to help improve the outcomes for the community, both in terms of societal values and economic values? And then how does that connect to the environment?

(14:10):

So far in this project, the growers who are involved in it with us have already found benefits in just engaging in those conversations and understanding what some of the constraints are that maybe they hadn’t thought about because you’re so focused on the day-to-day. All of us get like this. You get so focused on the day-to-day, but taking that step back and looking at the holistic picture already has been valuable. So, I’m really happy with the first phase of the project. And as we move into the next phase and start to look at the impacts of the water stewardship plans that the growers are developing right now, I think it’s going to be a really wonderful way for growers to communicate about how they’re using water and the benefits of that to the broader community.

John Mesko (14:52):

Okay, so for a farmer that is, as you say, involved in this project, what does that look like? What are they doing? What are they receiving back? What’s the interaction between the farmers and the project?

Brandy Wilson (15:09):

Well, the way that we set up the project was we established a project manager, and that person is actually working with each of the growers through the standard. So, it’s not like we just handed the standard to them and said, “Go figure it out.” We’ve got somebody who’s working side by side with them, and also folks from our companies who are interacting with the project manager and with the growers to gather information and to foster some of these conversations. We had a field tour last summer where we invited some of these other partners within the watershed who we’d reached out to as stakeholders. So really, the day-to-day lift for the growers has not been huge. It’s been mostly an interview process, more going out and having these tours than saying, “Here’s a big stack of paperwork that you need to do.” Right? That’s not how we’ve approached the project, and I think that’s been appreciated.

Mike Nemeth (16:03):

Yeah, it’s really like Brandy said, it’s been a facilitated walkthrough of the AWS standard, and really with the grower’s input and understanding, and then to the point now where they’re in the process of finalizing or getting ready to finish up the water stewardship plans that they’ve developed. And those stewardship plans, they’re meant to capture what the growers are doing on the farm that relates to water stewardship, whether that’s land management practices, whether that’s nutrient stewardship practices or management practices. It could be a whole host of things. So, what are the practices, products, and things that they’re hoping to do that they want to do? These roll up into a water stewardship plan. And that’s really where we’re at right now with the idea, that those plans would be evaluated, and then implemented over time to see if those were implemented, what’s the value versus the current case situation.

John Mesko (16:59):

And one of the things that, as I mentioned earlier, PSA, thinking about expanding and evolving the scope of our program to include some of these non-hard data point types of assessments, I’m thinking about this water management project, and I’m thinking as a farmer right now, and I’m thinking, how did the farmers in the program find out about it? How were they connected to it? Were they asked? Were they expected to? Can people join? Can more farmers join? What if a farmer in the area has not been participating, didn’t know about it, found out about it now at this kind of halfway through or partway through the program, and says, “Well, I’d really like to be involved in that as well?” I mean, those are the kinds of things that I’m wondering about as we think about if we want to include these types of programs and projects in the PSA sustainability effort. How does that play out?

Mike Nemeth (18:05):

So, these types of programs are built or kind of designed, I think, to be able to allow people to join at different times, at different stages, because really, it’s a process. And when we took this project on, the idea was to build something or try something that was scalable and replicable in any watershed where any of the companies were operating or had an interest. And really, it can be. The AWS standard is designed and built to be applied in any sector, in any region of the world. And so the idea with it is water stewardship is a process. Just like sustainability, it’s a process. We often talk about it as an outcome, but it’s a process. And through going through a process, sustainable outcomes are just inevitable. Water stewardship is founded on good agronomy. And so the idea with this is anybody could enter this or anybody can start a process like this at any time.

(19:02):

We happened to start this one by selecting growers that we thought might be interested that were either suppliers to Simplot or customers of Nutrien or BASF or sources to General Mills, some kind of connection to one of the companies. And in identifying those growers, we asked if they were interested in participating, and those that were interested participated. And the idea was to start to show and understand what is value creation. How would we do this? Why would a grower want to do it? And then, at the end of it, is really able to present the business case and understand this is the process, these are the outcomes. That would hopefully speak for itself.

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(20:30):

Another question I’ve got along those lines is, are the farmers compensated in any way for their involvement? And what other types of benefits do they get in addition to that? So, what kinds of data, or what kinds of education or learnings, or what additional returns are they getting for their involvement in the project?

Brandy Wilson (20:54):

Well, they’re getting the opportunity to have tools to speak to people in their communities about the value of what they’re doing on their farms. So right now, a lot of these growers are already implementing water stewardship approaches on their land and being able to capture the value of those and actually put them through a model that is going to spit out the economic, social and environmental benefits of the things that they’re doing now, plus things that they anticipate doing. So, some of these water stewardship plans is, well, I’ve always thought about doing this thing, but I haven’t done it yet. Would it actually be a benefit for me to do that? It’s answering those questions.

(21:33):

And so while the growers are not directly compensated, we are providing the service, if you will, of helping them to categorize what they’re doing right now, look at things that they could be doing, and then at the end of this, they’re going to get a report back that says, if you do these things, this is going to be the benefit, or this is going to be the cost, because it could be that as well, right? We just don’t know yet. But that’s what they’re going to get back, is they’re going to get feedback on those plans and on the things that they’re doing right now so that they can better have those conversations within their watershed about steps that they’re taking on their farms.

John Mesko (22:12):

And I think the reason this is relevant, I think, for PSA… And in our board meeting just earlier this week here at the beginning of January, we decided that PSA would provide some fiscal agency to this project later on in 2023 to help facilitate this and continue to make it available as the project wraps up. And I think this ability or this opportunity for PSA to be involved in that way potentially could be a template for other projects. Again, in this kind of soft information, sustainability information dialogue that we’re having, I’m interested in learning about real or hypothetical projects that could be rolled out in the future that PSA could connect with and make available to growers and stakeholders of our organization that would allow them to connect without having necessarily hard data involved, but they can connect with and demonstrate their commitment, their understanding, their approach to sustainability.

Mike Nemeth (23:21):

Yeah, John. And that’s a good question. There are some other examples. This project is unique, and we have been told that globally, it is a very unique project in how it came together, the Manitoba Project. The actors that are involved, what it’s trying to accomplish, it is quite unique in the field, which is great. It’s nice to be a part of that. There is another project in southern Alberta in the irrigated region of potato production that is being looked at. It involves the nutrients part of it, Cavendish Farms, another PSA member, and then it has… It’s using the same AWS standard, but it’s looking at members of an entire value chain. So, it’s looking at a grower, the irrigation districts that supply the water to the farms, and then Cavendish Farms, their processing facility, to understand from a processor all the way down to the farm, what does water stewardship applied in a more formal setting look like?

(24:17):

How is that done? And then, what can we learn across a value chain if everybody’s applying it? And what does it look like? And that project, it’ll be wrapping up here, mid-2023. And the learnings from that are actually being applied to some of the things that we’ve learned about and talked about in our thinking about the Manitoba Project. And a lot of that is able to funnel into what we’ve talked about in the PSA. The water teams worked really hard in 2022 and in 2023 on what does a water program look like for PSA and how might we be able to create something that brings value, not just to growers and to processors, but to the entire sector? And then from that, how do we tie into other sustainability interests such as biodiversity and climate? And so there are examples of these, but I’d say the Manitoba Project is somewhat unique in its form.

Brandy Wilson (25:14):

Yeah, it really is unique, and we’ve definitely benefited from some of the learnings from the Alberta project as well and how we’re evolving this. And I think that’s where the opportunity really is for PSA, is to help to evolve some of these projects that really demonstrate on the ground value for communities, for farmers, for processors, for aggregators, for whoever it is. But there’s a lot of other areas we can look at too, right? So, PSA has been… We have our five pillars that we’re working on for greenhouse gases and for water, and we’ve got a few coming up that are not easy to put metrics to. We’ve got biodiversity coming up, and we’ve got farmer legacy coming up as issues that we’re going to work through together as an organization. And so when I think about biodiversity, I think, gosh, wouldn’t it be cool if we could come up with some sort of program or process that would make it easy for farmers to address biodiversity or pollinator habitat or something like that?

(26:21):

It’s like, can we develop something that would be an easy button that could be applied in different regions, respecting regional differences? Or hypothetically speaking, is there some organization that we could partner with or something that we could look at as a best practice around farmer legacy and livelihood that we could bring to the table? And these are all things that aren’t check-a-box metrics, but these are things that really take us… If I go back to the water example, if you’re just looking at a metric for water, you’re talking about water management. But when you’re talking about partnerships and programs, like what we’re doing with Manitoba, that’s water stewardship, and that is just next-level stuff. And that is so exciting to provide those opportunities for people to really say, “Hey, this is what we’re doing to advance the ball on sustainability. We’re not just checking a box on sustainability. We’re not just managing, we’re actually stewarding this resource. And here’s how.”

(27:21):

And that’s where I think the magic can really happen. It’s starting with water, but that’s where it’s going to be really magic for us. I think as we move into biodiversity and some of these other topics that aren’t and never should be check-a-box topics.

John Mesko (27:35):

Right. I agree. And I think when we get to that, I think everybody’s going to be relieved we’re not collecting more information. 

Brandy Wilson (27:46):

Right.

John Mesko (27:46):

We’re not asking for more information. The survey’s not getting any bigger, and I think that’s really important. So, I’m looking forward to that as well, because I do… Having grown up on a farm and having farmed myself, I struggle with putting the concept of trying to put a burden on a farmer or trying to understand what they’re really facing when it comes to sharing information. So, it’s really important to me, and I know to PSA and to both of you, and really all of our stakeholders, that we are not burdening the farmers unduly.

Brandy Wilson (28:18):

Yeah. And like you, John, I mean, I grew up in a rural community. I was a 4H kid. I was a townie, so I didn’t have the cow project or the goat project. I was doing the dog project, but I hung out with all the farm kids in 4H, right? And so when I start thinking about legacy and community, I start thinking about, well, gosh, why aren’t we doing something with 4H kids or FFA or… I mean, when you start talking hypothetically about the possibilities and the ways that we could take this, it gets really exciting really fast when I even just think about my own history and things that I learned growing up about where food comes from that many kids didn’t learn.

John Mesko (28:54):

Right. And it takes the conversation away from the measurement, which, again, the finish line’s always moving. The ability to measure is getting more and more finite, so we expect greater and more precise measurements. That is part of the farmer’s frustration, I think, because you guys are always kind of tightening the screws, right? You’re getting more minute and more detailed in the measurements and the metrics and calculations that you want. And what you just mentioned, Brandy is a breath of fresh air. It’s like, oh, yes, we can actually account for all those good community leadership kinds of things that are going on out there that, again, getting back to your point, Mike, are all part of producing the most important thing on the planet, and that’s food for people, right?

(29:45):

So, I think I’m going to continue to borrow your statement that we don’t need to hang our heads for using natural resources to produce food. That’s the whole reason for our existence. And I think owning that and admitting that and just being very upfront is kind of giving all the details on the item you’re trying to sell and just saying, this is really how it is. And I think that builds credibility and really gives people a sense of pride in what they’re doing too.

Mike Nemeth (30:14):

Yeah, I agree. I think that owning the fact that yes, we’re using natural resources, and oh, by the way, we’re doing it in a sustainable manner to be able to feed the world is a really good point. And the other thing that I and Brandy articulated absolutely beautifully is moving past this idea of management and measurement and into stewardship. And stewardship can’t be put into a metric. It can’t be done in a nice way. And we heard it over and over, whether it’s the Alberta Project, or the Manitoba Project, farmers say, “We want our story to be told. We want to show what we’re doing.” But farmers don’t have the time to do that. So, the water stewardship approach really allows other players and other actors in the value chain to be able to say, yeah, we can help you tell that story. And that story should be told because people need to understand and understand how natural resources are being used to produce food and how they’re being done sustainably so that we understand our food system better.

John Mesko (31:15):

That’s a great way to summarize a resource positive conversation, and I want to thank you both for really contributing to this. The whole idea of what we’re doing here, whether you call it sustainability or regenerative or resilient, we are advancing and improving the resources we use to grow food, to feed people. And that’s a really feel-good story, and I’m very happy to be a part of it, very happy to work with both of you. So thank you, Mike. And Brandy, thank you for joining me.

Mike Nemeth (31:43):

Thanks, John, for having us. It was a pleasure to be here.

Brandy Wilson (31:45):

Yeah, thank you. I really enjoyed the conversation.

John Mesko (31:47):

This is John Mesko with the Resource Positive Agriculture Podcast. Thank you, and stay positive.

Voiceover (31:57):

Thanks for tuning in to today’s episode. To hear more podcasts like this, please rate, review and subscribe to Resource Positive Agriculture. We want to hear from you. Remember to visit potatosustainability.org for show notes from this episode, leave your feedback, and to learn more about how PSA is collaborating for potato sustainability. Thank you. And remember, stay positive.